Category: A Bit Of A Chat With Ken Plume

I’ve had the opportunity to talk with a lot of interesting people over the years. Sadly, it often seems to take one of those people passing away for me to remember that I’ve had those opportunities.

After hearing the news of actor Sally Kellerman’s passing, I had a feeling that I had once interviewed her, and in looking through my archives, discovered that I indeed had. I can only assume, based on some of the questions in the discussion, that this was likely done in conjunction with a home video release (probably its DVD debut) of Robert Altman’s M*A*S*H, in which Kellerman had played Major Margaret “Hot Lips” Houlihan. But she had also done much more, and as is my wont in a conversation, we touched upon quite a bit more than just that.

From 2002, here’s my conversation with Sally Kellerman…

-Ken Plume

Conducted ~2002

KEN PLUME: I guess the first question to ask would be how you were introduced to M*A*S*H…

SALLY KELLERMAN: I don’t know… I just got a meeting and wore lipstick that day. I was usually always hiding my lips, because I didn’t want anyone to see my mouth, but before I left the meeting, Bob say, “I’ll give you the best part in the picture.

PLUME: The part in the original script was much smaller, wasn’t it?

KELLERMAN: It was. I guess I was an amateur, because I rushed right out and counted the lines – there were seven, I think – and I went, “Oh, I’m finished! I’ll never get in the movie.” Someone said, “You should go see him, because he’s really talented.” I went, “okay.” I read it again, and I went back and said, “Why does she have to leave the film? Why couldn’t she do this? Why couldn’t she do that?” He just looked at me so calmly and said, “Why couldn’t she? Why don’t you take a chance –you could end up with something for nothing.” I was shocked, because I came from TV, where you couldn’t change a word or – at that time –have any input into the scripts.

PLUME: Basically a “for hire” type of atmosphere, right?

KELLERMAN: Yeah, exactly. So this was like, “Huh?” That’s how it happened. I was kind of teary, and he was just ol’ Bob – the greatest.

PLUME: You mentioned the amount of TV work you had done up until that point – was M*A*S*H a big break for you?

KELLERMAN: Yeah, I had done a lot of television in the 60’s and I was dying to get into the movies. I was just sure I should be in the movies.

PLUME: What was the difficulty in making the leap to film? Were you pigeon-holed as a TV actress?

KELLERMAN: I was always playing the hard-bitten drunk. I started on a Chrysler Hour playing Rod Steiger’s hard-bitten drunken daughter. My first break was Outer Limits, when Joe Stefano discovered me in a play. I played the real mean, cruel, well-dressed wife killed by the monster… that kind of thing. I was always telling everybody that I could be funny. My friends always said that I should be a comedienne – I was named my class clown. So I did Bonanazas to prove I could be funny – and you know how funny they were. I ended up doing them, but funny – I don’t think I was.

PLUME: You did a lot of genre shows in the 60s…

KELLERMAN: Yeah…

PLUME: Outer Limits, Alfred Hitchcock… You also were in one of the pilots for a rather seminal 60s TV show, Star Trek…

KELLERMAN: That’s right… I was in the pilot of Star Trek…

PLUME: Wearing what I hear were terribly uncomfortable contact lenses…

KELLERMAN: Oh yes! And Gary Lockwood yelling, “Get these fucking things out of my eyes!” We had this silly scene –we were gods, and we were supposed to walk around. Me and Bill Shatner did not look too good in our little powder blue stretch suits – we were kind of chubby – with booties. I think they changed it some, and who knew what we were doing? So Gary and I were gods, and we had these lenses in our eyes – he could stand it for maybe 2 seconds – and were supposed to walk around the lake plucking fruits and cracking it open with our hands. They said, “Rolling” and “Action” and we start walking around there. We can’t see a damn thing. One of us, our foot slipped into the lake, and we stand back up and then we walk over to pull the fruit off the tree and Gary can’t get it off the tree – still they don’t say cut – and he was supposed to break the fruit open with his bare hands, but he can’t, and it’s smooshing in his hands. Nobody is saying cut. We’re going over the dialogue, and we’re supposed to be these indomitable gods. Finally, Gary gives one of his lovely, “Get these fucking things out of my eyes!” We get them out and we look around, and the crew were all on the ground, wiping the tears out of their eyes from the laughter.

PLUME: See, you did get to do comedy…

KELLERMAN: Yeah! There I was – comedy. See, I knew I would get to do it!

PLUME: Was there any sense at the time that it would be a landmark show?

KELLERMAN: Oh my lord, who the frig knew? Too bad I was just a guest star.

PLUME: What was the working environment like on the show?

KELLERMAN: That was a blast, because it was so foreign to everything we’d done. I was so thrilled to be working as an actress that I had a good time wherever I was. I remember working with Rod, though, on Chrysler Hour. I was too young and dumb to know that I was supposed to be scared of anybody or anything – like getting fired or anything like that. I remember working with Rod, and I was so thrilled to be working as his daughter, and it was an honor and everything, and he’d come over to me and he’d go, “Who are those guys in the dark suits?” And I’d go, “I don’t know…” He was always worried that the heads of Universal were going to come down. I’d just say, “I don’t know. I guess they’re just guys in dark suits.”

PLUME: So you hadn’t learned the actor’s paranoia yet…

KELLERMAN: No, I hadn’t learned. I had my own low self-esteem, whether I was any good or not, but I wasn’t worried from the outside.

PLUME: How difficult was it at that time to make the transition out of TV?

KELLERMAN: It’s a difficult thing now. It’s always a difficult thing. I mean, you can get a crack at it out of TV today, but not many of them succeed, you know?

PLUME: What were the challenges you faced?

KELLERMAN: I don’t know… I just knew I wanted to be in the movies. I got a part in a thing called The Third Day, with George Peppard and Elizabeth Ashley, and I had to say things like, “Yes puppy… Yes puppy…” Everything was “puppy”. And I had to do this dance –and it was the first time that I had ever really been thin. I had dieted so hard and I was so proud that I was going to be thin and get to do this thing. Henry Fonda had seen me in something and had (who was to become) his wife call me up and say, “My boyfriend wants to meet with you, kid. He saw you in something and he thinks you’re really great. He wants you to do this thing, kid.” And I went, “Yeah… yeah… Who is your boyfriend?” She goes, “Oh… Henry Fonda.” And I went, “oooOOOOOhhhh…” So when I did The Third Day, Henry had Arthur Penn come watch me work, for a movie that Henry’s daughter Jane ended up doing with Marlon. But it was an exciting time for me, and I said, “Oh boy! This is my big break! I’m in the movies!” And, of course, the movie did nothing, nobody saw it, and I was back in TV. So it wasn’t until that accidental meeting with Bob when I wore that red lipstick…

PLUME: Looks like you picked the right day to wear make-up…

KELLERMAN: I did! I really went out to see about the other part – Lt. Dish was why I was there.

PLUME: You had done a picture before working on M*A*S*H, so you got a sense of how a normal Hollywood picture is shot…

KELLERMAN: Part of how I got it, too, was I was able to say that I just got finished doing a movie with Jack Lemmon. I had one scene with Jack Lemmon, playing his shrewish wife with her little fat face and dorky hair. The day I was to shoot my scene with Jack Lemmon, he said to me –and he was such a darling and I adored him – he said, “I hope you don’t mind – it’s my wife’s birthday and I really have to go out and get her a present, so if you wouldn’t mind doing the off-camera with the script supervisor…” That was my big break with Jack. I didn’t say any of that in the meeting… I just said, “I just worked with Jack Lemmon.” I was also the romantic lead in the Boston Strangler – I was the only one that lived to tell the story. – so I called myself the romantic lead. Henry Fonda was in that, and he said, “What have you done to her? She’s a beautiful woman!” I had all of these bruises all over me when he saw me on the set.

PLUME: But you lived till the end…

KELLERMAN: I lived… and I was the romantic lead.

PLUME: What was the difference between working with those other directors, and Bob’s style on M*A*S*H?

KELLERMAN: I had just had small parts in other films, and I’d worked with a lot of directors in TV. I remember one director on Ben Casey who, after every one take, would say, “Good-Cut-Print-Fine.” After every single take! Every once in awhile on TV, though, you’d work with a Sydney Pollack or a Mark Rydell. So normally you did your lines and did your scene, but with Bob, he was always trying something or would find something wonderful and creative to do. It was an ensemble. It was the beginning of being involved in movies, rather than having small role and showing up, because Bob is so different. Give him a really great script and he’ll just make it that much greater. Even without a script, he’s just filled with ideas and things that he’s adding to it – the ambiance and the atmosphere and everyone talking at once. The beginnings of those things happened in M*A*S*H.

PLUME: So it was a surprise coming to the set every day…

KELLERMAN: It was so exciting coming to the set every day! We had a fantastic, lovely man and brilliant art director Leon Ericksen who was the one who got me the magazines and I said, “Oh, so I should just go all the way with this character!” And he said, Yeah, and I think you should wear garters.” I was always worried about being fat, so I didn’t want to wear garters under my clothes, but the day Leon brought them in, I went out into the middle of the compound and said, “Okay Leon, I got your garters right here!” And Bob walks by and say, “Oh. Garters. Come with me…” Then that was me stepping out of the helicopter with the garters showing.

PLUME: Another iconic shot from the film…

KELLERMAN: Right, exactly. They also had me putting in things that are standard – if you’re thoughtful working actor you’d be doing this anyway once you had enough craft. They’d say, “What do you want in your tent? Do you smoke?” I like candy, so they were in there. Bob says, “I want you to walk over there… Do you smoke?” And I go, “No.” “Well what’s that in the dish?” “Candy.” “Okay, well walk over there and get a piece of candy.” It was just all so new and so creative.

PLUME: When you talk about being self-conscious – when was the nude scene broken to you?

KELLERMAN: Ahhhh!!! I said, “Oh, Bob, I don’t want to do a nude scene. Do I have to do it?” And, of course, it was once of the main jokes of the film, so you had to do it. So I asked, “Can I at least look good?” I was scared to death. It was the last thing I wanted to do – I was backing out of rooms all my life. He knew I was scared, and he said, “Well, you can stand in front of the crew for an hour and we’ll all light you stark naked, or as fast as you hit the deck, that’s what we’ll see.” So I was obligated to hit the deck. So I said, “Well, can’t I just wash my hair so I’m not just staring at the curtain?” And he was going to give me a song, because I’m a singer and I wanted to sing in everything. He found something that didn’t cost any money, but I was too scared to sing, so all you hear in the dailies is “ahhhh! AHHH!!” – just me squeaking. And then I just flung myself to the ground so you hopefully wouldn’t see anything.

PLUME: How many takes were there?

KELLERMAN: There were three takes. During the first take, Gary Burghoff was standing there stark naked on the other side of the camera, and all that was attributed to good acting to me was just my mouth hanging open, looking at Gary Burghoff. The next take (had) a nurse – bless her heart – without her shirt on. She had ample bosoms, and I’d already imagined a guy, so I figured it was a hermaphrodite or something – I didn’t know. And during the third one he had, fully clothed, Kenny – who sang Suicide is Painless – humping (the nurse) with no clothes on… Dry-humping just for fun. Bob knew that I was scared to death, so it was kind of like a joining – “You don’t have to be scared, because we’re all in it together.”

PLUME: I’m assuming that you didn’t have the same problems with Bob that Sutherland and Gould had…

KELLERMAN: No… I was so thrilled to be there! I was just crazy about Bob since the day I met him. It’s hard not to like somebody who sees something in you that nobody else has seen.

PLUME: Was it noticeable that there were problems with Gould and Sutherland?

KELLERMAN: That they were going to rebel? Yeah. They were just such rebels anyway, and their characters were rebels, so they just lived it to the hilt.

PLUME: How would you describe the group dynamic of your interactions with the rest of the cast?

KELLERMAN: All the rest of us were just young fledglings and just thrilled to death, and the other two little prigs were off on their own! Except to torment me… I had a crush on Elliott, so they would invite me to the movies, and on the day it would come, they’d say, “Ohhh, I’m going to a thing tonight…” and they’d never ask me. Things like that. They were just horrible.

PLUME: It sounds like Middle School stuff…

KELLERMAN: Yeah… It was really funny. But they came around. Tom (Skerritt)was very sweet, and we’re all friends now. I did another film called Younger and Younger with Donald, and Elliott and I have been friends, and I love Tom.

PLUME: And you’ve definitely worked with Bob many times since…

KELLERMAN: Yes. I’m very close with Bob and his lovely, fabulous wife Catherine, too.

PLUME: When you look back, what were the immediate aftereffects of M*A*S*H for you, after it hit big?

KELLERMAN: Well, it was the beginning of my film career. It was amazing to me that I got nominated for an Academy Award. Bob kept telling me that during the shoot –“You’re going to get nominated for an Academy Award…” And I’d say, “Oh, go on!” Then he’d take us all to dailies and go, “Oh, I bet you think you’re ugly there, Sally! Oh, I bet you hate yourself there!” All the things he knew about me, he’d make light of, and it made it so…

PLUME: As a means of thickening up your skin?

KELLERMAN: Yeah, I guess so.

PLUME: Were you offered the TV series?

KELLERMAN: You know, it’s something that people have asked me for thirty years, but I really don’t truthfully know that I was.

PLUME: I’m assuming by that point you wouldn’t want to go back to TV anyway…

KELLERMAN: I didn’t want to do it… I’d been trying to get out of TV for years! I wasn’t a businesswoman, so I didn’t know how to build a career. I got more bands and went on the road and turn down more movies than you would believe. I was an idiot in terms of career-building, but I had a great time.

PLUME: Taking stock and assessing your career, would you say you’re happy with where you are at this point?

KELLERMAN: Well, you know, I’ve had a very checkered career. My analyst always said, “You can do anything you want in life as long as you’re willing to pay the consequences.” I’d always say, when we’d be on the road and have turned down a movie, “What fun we had at the cook’s house after the third show!” There were four more people in the band then there were in the audience. But today I’m working with Leiber and Stoller on a show – they asked me if I would do this show, so I’ve learned about 26 songs of theirs, and we’re deciding how we’re going to do it and in what style. Separate from that, I’ve got a new album deal. So after all these years, things are just coming to me, and it’s wonderful. I hope to have some more cracks at some wonderful roles before I go to the Great Beyond. It hasn’t been smooth or delightful every minute, there were lean years and rough years, but it’s been exciting and good and I’m thrilled to be an actress and a singer and to have spent my life this way.

PLUME: I have to ask you a quick question from my younger years… What was it like doing the film Follow That Bird?

KELLERMAN: I did a voice in that, right?

PLUME: Yeah… Ms. Finch…

KELLERMAN: That’s the only character that I’ve ever done in an animated movie.

PLUME: How were you approached for it?

KELLERMAN: They just called me up and I thought, “Yeah… Let’s see what that’s like.” It was fun.