PLUME: When you speak about the evolution of you and Teller as a team, at what point was the third wheel ejected? You spoke of philosophical differences, being skeptics with a Christian in the group… was there a lot of friction with that?

JILLETTE: Not really, because at that time the ideas weren’t leaning as much towards skepticism. It was much more the team stuff and the differences, and that played out fairly well. And actually – and this sounds crazy, but it’s actually the truth – the reason we split up was that the third member of the group wanted to go to New York and be Off-Broadway, and then go to Broadway and be successful and do TV. And Teller and I did not want to go Off-Broadway, did not want to go on TV, but wanted to keep working s***holes doing weirder stuff.

PLUME: So the third man had the stars in his eyes…

JILLETTE: So he went of to try to get himself more mainstream, and Teller and I set off to be more weird – and ten years later we’d accomplished all his goals.

PLUME: And where is he now?

JILLETTE: He works for AT&T, answering phones.

PLUME: Well, that could be considered a goal…

JILLETTE: Yeah!

PLUME: He’s playing to a lot of people each day…

JILLETTE: Exactly. But it was very, very funny, and kind of just all those clichés that I don’t think are, overall, true… but we’d like them to be. Just be true to yourself, and try to say what you want to say, and do that, and don’t have a goal other than just the actual labor – and you’ll be fine. It’s kind of like what your mom and dad taught you, and in this case it ends up being cartoonily true.

PLUME: Bringing up the skepticism aspect, it always surprises me that so few people realize the true depth, and lessons, that are on exhibition in your performances – fundamental issues like “who do you trust” and “question everything” and not allowing yourself to be led. Sure, you’re wonderful performers, but there’s a lot of depth to your act…

JILLETTE: I believe that you pretty much have to have that. The example that always strikes me is that, if you go to a comedy club to see a comic, you’ll often – if you pay attention to the people at the table – you can have friends of yours that will laugh all the way through the show. And then at the end of the show, if you say, “How did you like that guy?”, they will say, “Eh, not that much. I didn’t laugh at all.” Now, the transcript does not show that. What they really mean, I believe – and I have no evidence of this whatsoever – but my feeling on this is that what they mean is, “I didn’t learn anything about the person.”

PLUME: So it was a gut instinct as opposed to an intellectual one…

JILLETTE: Yeah. What they’re trying to say – what they mean – is, “I define laughing as learning something about the comedian.” It doesn’t matter how much I laugh – if I don’t learn anything about another person’s heart, I haven’t seen a good show. So even if you just tell people, you know, that you get these ideas out of Penn & Teller and they say, “No, I just thought it was funny,” I think in order to think it’s funny – in order to follow the plot and to enjoy the tricks – you have to be jacking in to what we’re really doing, a little bit. And if you can convince me right now, on the phone, that they don’t – that all of that stuff has nothing to do with what they’re enjoying and they’re just enjoying the superficial stuff – then I won’t go in and do the show tonight. It would end Penn & Teller just like that.

PLUME: So why does Carrot Top get work?

JILLETTE: (laughing) You know, I don’t know! I really don’t know! I have my pizza theory, which I think is pretty important. I went to see one comic – an incredibly incompetent comic who, if I said his name, you’d just go, “oh yeah”… just awful. I mean, not even capable of constructing a joke. We’re talking about stuff that isn’t matters of opinion, but just awful in terms of the actual skill. And very successful. I went with another comic, who’s wonderful and very, very good – Paul Provenza. Provenza and I are sitting, watching this comic, at the back of the theater – and he was awful. And the crowd was laughing and having a good time, and Provenza just came out going, “I am just so f***ing depressed. Why bother doing a good show when this s*** is getting a good reaction? I just hate this.” And I said, “You know, they’re not here to judge how good it is – they’re here to have a good time.” I said, “The example is if you and I went out and had a pizza, and we’re sitting -the two of us. We haven’t seen each other in awhile, and we have ourselves a nice pizza. As we’re eating this pizza and talking and laughing and enjoying it, a chef comes over and goes, ‘You like that pizza?’ And we go ‘Yeah. We’re having a good time.’ And he says, ‘Well, you know the crust is a little bit burned, and they use too much oregano and too much salt to try and cover up the fact that the tomatoes have slightly turned, and the pepperoni on that is a really high fat content, and it really hasn’t been aged enough – it’s old, but it’s not properly aged. And your doughy crust, it’s just – it’s raw on the inside! And the cheese is just this processed skim milk cheese product – there’s really no sort of texture to it.’ And we go, ‘All that’s true… and if you brought us a better pizza, we’d enjoy that more… but right now, we’re enjoying this pizza.’ When you go out to see a show once or twice a year, you’re with somebody that you love, it’s a little bit of time off – you’re going to laugh and have a good time. That’s the basic thing you’re building. You talk about how Danny Ganz does a s***ty show and yet people seem to love it, I go, ‘Of course they love it, because it’s wonderful to be in a room! You’re forgetting the power of theater.’ The bottom line of how bad you can be is still pretty terrific. I mean, when you go into a nice air-conditioned, comfortable theater with good seats and there’s bright lights on the screen and loud sound and you go to the movies every six months, why not love it? That’s your job, to love it. Your job is not to analyze it. And if you go and try to think it’s s***ty, what do you get out of that?” So I think that – all that being said – there is a level where, coming to see Penn & Teller, it’s nice to be in a room with other people.

PLUME: So the audience forgives the performance for the experience…

JILLETTE: Sure! And I think that’s really good and really important that I love that, but while they’re there, I would like to make them a slightly better pizza. I would like to give them a little more nourishment. That’s not saying that they wouldn’t get everything they would get out of a s***ty pizza, but I want to give them all that and just a little bit more. And if you told me, “Penn, you’d make this same amount of money if you didn’t put that much time into this bit and did a little easier bit…” I would go, “Yeah, but that’s not where my joy is.” You know?

PLUME: So it’s the difference between a nice pizzeria place in New York, or Domino’s…

JILLETTE: Exactly! You and I could have a great conversation over a Domino’s pizza, you know?

PLUME: But what you’re really there for is the conversation – the interaction…

JILLETTE: Yeah…

PLUME: And the pizza is just dressing…

JILLETTE: No, the pizza is not just dressing. The pizza is also nourishment. It’s also what you’re there for – you want to eat something that’s really going to be good, that’s wonderful… but that doesn’t mean there’s a ceiling on how good it can be.

PLUME: So the pizza is the medium, not the message…

JILLETTE: (laughing) EXACTLY!

10 QUESTIONS

1. What is your favorite piece of music?
It depends what “favorite” means. In one definition it’s “Sketches of Spain” by Miles and “Rite of Spring” by Stravinsky. By another, it’s “Museum” by Donovan.

2. What is your favorite film?
By any definition it’s Rope, by Hitchcock. But that changes all the time – It might be Henry, Portrait of a Serial Killer or Fight Club. But it’ll change, that’s for sure.

3. What is your favorite TV program, past or current?
Perry Mason. But that could change to a different episode and year of Perry Mason.

4. What do you feel has been your most important professional accomplishment to date?
The Penn & Teller show. It’s changing all the time, but my work with Teller in live performance is the best thing I’ve done in the past, and it’ll be the best in the future. “Important” is something that remains to be seen. Bullshit was the most overtly “important” and I’m way proud of that.

5. Which project do you feel didn’t live up to what you envisioned?
A show I did called Fi Sci for the “Sci Fi” channel. It never aired. It’s a hard choice. I fuck up a lot.

6. What is your favorite book?
Moby Dick! Yup, Moby Dick. And then The Mezzanine by Nicholson Baker. But, Moby wins.

7. If you could change one thing about the industry, what would it be?
I would make executives more concerned with making money. I’m serious. They get all into this “studio image” thing and they keep trying to have a blockbuster. I would like them to be very happy to make a profit and put out anything that they thought would do that. Even a modest profit. If they were run more like a grocery store, we’d have stuff that not everyone buys, but enough people buy. If entertainment ran grocery stores, we’d NEVER get oil cured olives or blue cheese, it would be JUST Coke. Coke is fine, but we need the stuff we don’t all want too. If they just cared about a profit and not their image as “hit” makers we’d be fine. The only people that care what studio makes what movie is the studio execs. I wish they cared more about just running a company and putting out anything people would buy. Merchant/Ivory should do porno and horror and anything else. Who cares about image?

8. Who – or what – would you say has had the biggest influence on your career?
Amazing Randi, with a nice solid dose of Lou Reed.

9. What is your next project?
More live P&T stuff. There’s always new bits to do. There’s always stuff we’re thinking of. And I hope another year of Bullshit.

10. What is the one project that you’ve always wanted to do, but have yet to be able to?
I’ve always wanted to make the world a more rational place. I’m still working on it.

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